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	<title>Comments on: The 2008 candidates on political reform</title>
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	<link>http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=1497</link>
	<description>The Weblog of Matthew S. Shugart</description>
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		<title>By: Derek</title>
		<link>http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=1497#comment-187740</link>
		<dc:creator>Derek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Sep 2012 03:23:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=1497#comment-187740</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d like to see the following plan be put into play in a Presidential Election, in each state:

- The winning party gets automatic access to the runoff
- The other candidates face off in a first round, where the winner goes to the runoff

This would be interesting!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d like to see the following plan be put into play in a Presidential Election, in each state:</p>
<p>- The winning party gets automatic access to the runoff<br />
- The other candidates face off in a first round, where the winner goes to the runoff</p>
<p>This would be interesting!</p>
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		<title>By: Fruits and Votes</title>
		<link>http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=1497#comment-164346</link>
		<dc:creator>Fruits and Votes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Feb 2008 18:34:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=1497#comment-164346</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Off to vote!&lt;/strong&gt;

I should be unhappy and frustrated. There were eight candidates at the start, and the two remaining competitive candidates were my fifth and eighth choices. Yet I am excited. I am about to go cast a vote that I feel is both sincere and will count, in a way in which few votes I have ever cast in my life have counted.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Off to vote!</strong></p>
<p>I should be unhappy and frustrated. There were eight candidates at the start, and the two remaining competitive candidates were my fifth and eighth choices. Yet I am excited. I am about to go cast a vote that I feel is both sincere and will count, in a way in which few votes I have ever cast in my life have counted.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Round</title>
		<link>http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=1497#comment-164319</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Round</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2008 00:05:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=1497#comment-164319</guid>
		<description>Oops, now I&#039;m mixing Dubya with Reagan, my bad.

Interestingly, with the passing of the House of Bush from the presidential scene (this being only the second quadrennial election in 32 years where no George Bush will get any votes in the Electoral College), not only that era but a chain stretching back to Reagan, or even arguably Goldwater, will have ended. For as Reagan handed the sceptre he&#039;d received from Goldwater to GHW Bush, who in turn bequeathed it (or, perhaps, who saw it devolve upon intestacy) to GW Bush, now with Cheney&#039;s &quot;nolo presidere&quot; and Dubya&#039;s neutrality in the 22008 GOP primary contest, the sword has been cemented back into the stone... so to speak.

Overlapping with the Goldwater/ Reagan ascendancy within the GOP was, of course, that of RM Nixon, who seems to have left no heir (who will acknowledge that heirship), but who - if my calculations are correct - would have received more Electoral Votes (either for President in 1960, 1968 or 1972) or for Veep (in 1952 and 1956) than anyone else in the history of the Republic, not excluding FDR.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops, now I&#8217;m mixing Dubya with Reagan, my bad.</p>
<p>Interestingly, with the passing of the House of Bush from the presidential scene (this being only the second quadrennial election in 32 years where no George Bush will get any votes in the Electoral College), not only that era but a chain stretching back to Reagan, or even arguably Goldwater, will have ended. For as Reagan handed the sceptre he&#8217;d received from Goldwater to GHW Bush, who in turn bequeathed it (or, perhaps, who saw it devolve upon intestacy) to GW Bush, now with Cheney&#8217;s &#8220;nolo presidere&#8221; and Dubya&#8217;s neutrality in the 22008 GOP primary contest, the sword has been cemented back into the stone&#8230; so to speak.</p>
<p>Overlapping with the Goldwater/ Reagan ascendancy within the GOP was, of course, that of RM Nixon, who seems to have left no heir (who will acknowledge that heirship), but who &#8211; if my calculations are correct &#8211; would have received more Electoral Votes (either for President in 1960, 1968 or 1972) or for Veep (in 1952 and 1956) than anyone else in the history of the Republic, not excluding FDR.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Round</title>
		<link>http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=1497#comment-164318</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Round</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Feb 2008 23:41:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=1497#comment-164318</guid>
		<description>Oops, sorry, five ways. Huckabee got the &quot;conservative Christians&quot; end of the mantle, Giuliani the &quot;tough on terrorists&quot; part, McCain the &quot;folksy populist with gripping war pilot stories to tell&quot; end, Romney the &quot;sensible, fiscally conservative governor of a liberal State&quot; [*] bit, while Fred&#039;s inherited the... uh... &quot;divorced actor-turned-politician with a keen devotion to federalism&quot; shred.

[*] My understanding is that California wasn&#039;t all that liberal when Reagan first took over in 1966. Is this correct? All I can name OTTOMH among the preceding Governors is Earl Warren and Pat Brown, ie, a centrist GOP and a centrist Democrat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops, sorry, five ways. Huckabee got the &#8220;conservative Christians&#8221; end of the mantle, Giuliani the &#8220;tough on terrorists&#8221; part, McCain the &#8220;folksy populist with gripping war pilot stories to tell&#8221; end, Romney the &#8220;sensible, fiscally conservative governor of a liberal State&#8221; [*] bit, while Fred&#8217;s inherited the&#8230; uh&#8230; &#8220;divorced actor-turned-politician with a keen devotion to federalism&#8221; shred.</p>
<p>[*] My understanding is that California wasn&#8217;t all that liberal when Reagan first took over in 1966. Is this correct? All I can name OTTOMH among the preceding Governors is Earl Warren and Pat Brown, ie, a centrist GOP and a centrist Democrat.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Round</title>
		<link>http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=1497#comment-164240</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Round</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2008 10:46:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=1497#comment-164240</guid>
		<description>&gt; &quot;Instead individuals are competing, which for a number of reasons canâ€™t work quite the same wayâ€“mortality being the most obvious&quot;

And the de jure equivalent of mortality, ie, term limits.

I was recently thinking how Dubya&#039;s legacy - like that of another famous conqueror of Mesopotamia, 2,300 years ago - has been split four ways, with no one of the four the obvious successor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt; &#8220;Instead individuals are competing, which for a number of reasons canâ€™t work quite the same wayâ€“mortality being the most obvious&#8221;</p>
<p>And the de jure equivalent of mortality, ie, term limits.</p>
<p>I was recently thinking how Dubya&#8217;s legacy &#8211; like that of another famous conqueror of Mesopotamia, 2,300 years ago &#8211; has been split four ways, with no one of the four the obvious successor.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Richard</title>
		<link>http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=1497#comment-163850</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 19:09:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=1497#comment-163850</guid>
		<description>MSS (#5 above) asks, &lt;em&gt;And didnâ€™t he [Obama] win his own primary for US Senate by much less than a majority? Did that change his view on the desirability of IRV?&lt;/em&gt;

Richard Winger of Ballot Access News has found &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-070403obama-ballot,0,1843097.story&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this gem&lt;/a&gt; in the Chicago Tribune.  When I was a student in Chicago (a long time ago) the Trib was one of the most right-wing papers in America.  Might still be true, so this might not be the whole, unbiased story of Obama&#039;s political good fortune.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MSS (#5 above) asks, <em>And didnâ€™t he [Obama] win his own primary for US Senate by much less than a majority? Did that change his view on the desirability of IRV?</em></p>
<p>Richard Winger of Ballot Access News has found <a target="_blank" href="http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-070403obama-ballot,0,1843097.story"  rel="nofollow">this gem</a> in the Chicago Tribune.  When I was a student in Chicago (a long time ago) the Trib was one of the most right-wing papers in America.  Might still be true, so this might not be the whole, unbiased story of Obama&#8217;s political good fortune.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Fruits and Votes</title>
		<link>http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=1497#comment-163831</link>
		<dc:creator>Fruits and Votes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 02:28:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=1497#comment-163831</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Is California&#8217;s Democratic primary really this uncompetitive?&lt;/strong&gt;

The decision rule has been something like: (1) Gravel or Kucinich (with various complicated rules for resolving that choice) for expression of sincere policy preference (especially on political reform); (2) Edwards on sincere delegate-preference grounds; (3) Obama on sincere grounds of a candidateâ€™s projected use of the presidential office for persuasion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Is California&#8217;s Democratic primary really this uncompetitive?</strong></p>
<p>The decision rule has been something like: (1) Gravel or Kucinich (with various complicated rules for resolving that choice) for expression of sincere policy preference (especially on political reform); (2) Edwards on sincere delegate-preference grounds; (3) Obama on sincere grounds of a candidateâ€™s projected use of the presidential office for persuasion.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron Armitage</title>
		<link>http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=1497#comment-163684</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron Armitage</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jan 2008 20:09:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=1497#comment-163684</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Every two years, he will ask 1 million citizens nationwide to participate in Citizen Congresses combining local town halls with the latest technology to create true national discussions, unfiltered by interest groups. Americans will discuss the challenges and trade-offs facing our country and offer advisory opinions to leaders.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Why does this remind me of the elaborate acclamations staged by every modern dictator?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Every two years, he will ask 1 million citizens nationwide to participate in Citizen Congresses combining local town halls with the latest technology to create true national discussions, unfiltered by interest groups. Americans will discuss the challenges and trade-offs facing our country and offer advisory opinions to leaders.</p></blockquote>
<p>Why does this remind me of the elaborate acclamations staged by every modern dictator?</p>
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		<title>By: MSS</title>
		<link>http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=1497#comment-163644</link>
		<dc:creator>MSS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 18:22:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=1497#comment-163644</guid>
		<description>It is true that &lt;em&gt;presidential&lt;/em&gt; primaries mostly use a semi-proportional allocation (semi- because of high thresholds and often low magnitudes*), especially in the Democratic Party. However, Bob was referring to primaries for US Senate and other non-presidential nominations. There, outside of the South, the rule is almost always plurality. So, a multicandidate field is a &quot;violation&quot; of Duverger&#039;s Law. Of course, Cox notes several factors that must be present for the Duvergerian equilibrium to emerge. There are also non-Duvergerian equilibria, when there are three or four candidates with realistic chances of winning.

I have never seen systematic data on the frequency of (non-) Duvergerian outcomes in US primaries for non-presidential races.

____
* Consider this year&#039;s rules for the &lt;a href=&quot;http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=1469&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;California Democratic presidential primary&lt;/a&gt;, for example.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is true that <em>presidential</em> primaries mostly use a semi-proportional allocation (semi- because of high thresholds and often low magnitudes*), especially in the Democratic Party. However, Bob was referring to primaries for US Senate and other non-presidential nominations. There, outside of the South, the rule is almost always plurality. So, a multicandidate field is a &#8220;violation&#8221; of Duverger&#8217;s Law. Of course, Cox notes several factors that must be present for the Duvergerian equilibrium to emerge. There are also non-Duvergerian equilibria, when there are three or four candidates with realistic chances of winning.</p>
<p>I have never seen systematic data on the frequency of (non-) Duvergerian outcomes in US primaries for non-presidential races.</p>
<p>____<br />
* Consider this year&#8217;s rules for the <a href="http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=1469"  rel="nofollow">California Democratic presidential primary</a>, for example.</p>
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		<title>By: Vasi</title>
		<link>http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=1497#comment-163640</link>
		<dc:creator>Vasi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 07:54:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=1497#comment-163640</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;U.S. primaries often contradict Duverger and Gary Cox by having more than two viable candidates&lt;/i&gt;

The easy answers is that the Democrats now allot delegates proportionally, so one wouldn&#039;t expect Duverger&#039;s Law to hold.

But more importantly, the primaries aren&#039;t repeated contests between parties. Instead individuals are competing, which for a number of reasons can&#039;t work quite the same way--mortality being the most obvious. There are ways that Duverger&#039;s Law could still be made to apply, but under conditions different from those in the US right now:

* If a party were composed of multiple well-defined sub-groups, the number of such groups might be expected to decline to two. But in the US, intra-party interest groups are much too amorphous and not very good at massing their support behind a single candidate.

* If the top candidates could maintain their high profile between primary cycles, and were inclined to anoint successors when they retired, then these dynasties could substitute for the &quot;parties&quot; or Duverger&#039;s Law. In parliamentary systems, especially within a perpetually ruling party, this is quite plausible. But in recent years Americans seem to view losers of presidential elections as somehow tainted and no longer viable, so I see this as especially unlikely in the US.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>U.S. primaries often contradict Duverger and Gary Cox by having more than two viable candidates</i></p>
<p>The easy answers is that the Democrats now allot delegates proportionally, so one wouldn&#8217;t expect Duverger&#8217;s Law to hold.</p>
<p>But more importantly, the primaries aren&#8217;t repeated contests between parties. Instead individuals are competing, which for a number of reasons can&#8217;t work quite the same way&#8211;mortality being the most obvious. There are ways that Duverger&#8217;s Law could still be made to apply, but under conditions different from those in the US right now:</p>
<p>* If a party were composed of multiple well-defined sub-groups, the number of such groups might be expected to decline to two. But in the US, intra-party interest groups are much too amorphous and not very good at massing their support behind a single candidate.</p>
<p>* If the top candidates could maintain their high profile between primary cycles, and were inclined to anoint successors when they retired, then these dynasties could substitute for the &#8220;parties&#8221; or Duverger&#8217;s Law. In parliamentary systems, especially within a perpetually ruling party, this is quite plausible. But in recent years Americans seem to view losers of presidential elections as somehow tainted and no longer viable, so I see this as especially unlikely in the US.</p>
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