<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Lots of blanks</title>
	<atom:link href="http://fruitsandvotes.com/?feed=rss2&#038;p=6502" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=6502</link>
	<description>The Weblog of Matthew S. Shugart</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 24 May 2013 05:18:31 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=6502#comment-189687</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2013 08:09:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=6502#comment-189687</guid>
		<description>Not to belabor the Chilean point, but I was unaware that a vote to eliminate the binominal system was held last week. It received 23 of the 38 votes in the Senate; 25 were needed to enact the change. 

http://www.infolatam.com/2013/01/23/chile-fracasa-de-nuevo-el-proyecto-de-reforma-del-sistema-electoral/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not to belabor the Chilean point, but I was unaware that a vote to eliminate the binominal system was held last week. It received 23 of the 38 votes in the Senate; 25 were needed to enact the change. </p>
<p><a target="_blank" href="http://www.infolatam.com/2013/01/23/chile-fracasa-de-nuevo-el-proyecto-de-reforma-del-sistema-electoral/"  rel="nofollow">http://www.infolatam.com/2013/01/23/chile-fracasa-de-nuevo-el-proyecto-de-reforma-del-sistema-electoral/</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=6502#comment-189686</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2013 07:00:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=6502#comment-189686</guid>
		<description>As for not representing the center well, as alleged earlier, I think that&#039;s unfair in that the center in Chile is largely the PDC (Christian Democrats), which have chosen to cooperate with the Socialist/Radical left over the right. They don&#039;t have enough support as an individual party to take many seats, but then again, no party in Chile has enough support outside a few districts to do well on its own; if, as it has from time to time been suggested, the PDC and Renovación Nacional (the more moderate of the two main right-wing parties) formed an alliance, I think said alliance would take one seat, if not two, in most districts.

I think the M=2 system&#039;s impetus to form pre-election coalitions, rather than contentions negotiations after elections, is one of the system&#039;s strongest virtues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As for not representing the center well, as alleged earlier, I think that&#8217;s unfair in that the center in Chile is largely the PDC (Christian Democrats), which have chosen to cooperate with the Socialist/Radical left over the right. They don&#8217;t have enough support as an individual party to take many seats, but then again, no party in Chile has enough support outside a few districts to do well on its own; if, as it has from time to time been suggested, the PDC and Renovación Nacional (the more moderate of the two main right-wing parties) formed an alliance, I think said alliance would take one seat, if not two, in most districts.</p>
<p>I think the M=2 system&#8217;s impetus to form pre-election coalitions, rather than contentions negotiations after elections, is one of the system&#8217;s strongest virtues.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=6502#comment-189685</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2013 06:52:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=6502#comment-189685</guid>
		<description>John Carey has an article on the virtues of the Chilean/Pinochet system: http://www.scielo.cl/scielo.php?pid=S0718-090X2006000100016&amp;script=sci_arttext#a

It uses &quot;sistema binominal,&quot; so it would appear that the English &quot;binomial&quot; is simply a mistranslation of the Spanish for &quot;two-member system.&quot;

I would absolutely agree that it isn&#039;t a system to be copied on the whole (I&#039;m frankly surprised the GOP hasn&#039;t proposed it for congressional elections), but I would argue that the biggest flaw in the system is extreme malapportionment, and that the system would likely perform admirably were that not the case. In particular, the &quot;reasonable mix of representativeness, governability, and individual legislator accountability&quot; is something that most systems do not achieve, either in being far too proportional, and therefore inefficient (Israel&#039;s current Haredi-versus-Lapid coalition negotiations come to mind), or in the FPTP flaw most prevalent in the UK, Canada, and the USA of not representing the votes of the majority of the population in the legislative majority. Were Chile fairly apportioned, I think the system would end up reflecting a Concertación majority until the right actually won more votes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John Carey has an article on the virtues of the Chilean/Pinochet system: <a target="_blank" href="http://www.scielo.cl/scielo.php?pid=S0718-090X2006000100016&#038;script=sci_arttext#a"  rel="nofollow">http://www.scielo.cl/scielo.php?pid=S0718-090X2006000100016&#038;script=sci_arttext#a</a></p>
<p>It uses &#8220;sistema binominal,&#8221; so it would appear that the English &#8220;binomial&#8221; is simply a mistranslation of the Spanish for &#8220;two-member system.&#8221;</p>
<p>I would absolutely agree that it isn&#8217;t a system to be copied on the whole (I&#8217;m frankly surprised the GOP hasn&#8217;t proposed it for congressional elections), but I would argue that the biggest flaw in the system is extreme malapportionment, and that the system would likely perform admirably were that not the case. In particular, the &#8220;reasonable mix of representativeness, governability, and individual legislator accountability&#8221; is something that most systems do not achieve, either in being far too proportional, and therefore inefficient (Israel&#8217;s current Haredi-versus-Lapid coalition negotiations come to mind), or in the FPTP flaw most prevalent in the UK, Canada, and the USA of not representing the votes of the majority of the population in the legislative majority. Were Chile fairly apportioned, I think the system would end up reflecting a Concertación majority until the right actually won more votes.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: MSS</title>
		<link>http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=6502#comment-189653</link>
		<dc:creator>MSS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2013 18:13:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=6502#comment-189653</guid>
		<description>Last (I hope) comment on Chile&#039;s two-seat D&#039;Hondt: It is true that it has permitted a majority of seats for the leading coalition in most elections. However, usually the leader had a majority of votes, too (which would not be the case in the U.K.). In &lt;a href=&quot;http://psephos.adam-carr.net/countries/c/chile/chileleg2001a.txt&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;2001&lt;/a&gt; it manufactured a majority, but it was a close call: seats split 62-57 when votes split 47.9%-44.3%. 

In &lt;a href=&quot;http://psephos.adam-carr.net/countries/c/chile/chilechamber2009.txt&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;2009&lt;/a&gt;, there was a plurality reversal. The system inherently overrepresents the second largest party/coalition, and hence manufactured majorities likely would not be common, and plurality reversals an ever-present threat. I suspect (but won&#039;t claim to prove) that such outcomes would be even more prevalent with M=2 STV or SNTV.

(I can&#039;t tell how much of the Chilean pattern stems from malapportionment, but the patterns described, even if attenuated, would be inherent to the system even with fair apportionment.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Last (I hope) comment on Chile&#8217;s two-seat D&#8217;Hondt: It is true that it has permitted a majority of seats for the leading coalition in most elections. However, usually the leader had a majority of votes, too (which would not be the case in the U.K.). In <a target="_blank" href="http://psephos.adam-carr.net/countries/c/chile/chileleg2001a.txt"  rel="nofollow">2001</a> it manufactured a majority, but it was a close call: seats split 62-57 when votes split 47.9%-44.3%. </p>
<p>In <a target="_blank" href="http://psephos.adam-carr.net/countries/c/chile/chilechamber2009.txt"  rel="nofollow">2009</a>, there was a plurality reversal. The system inherently overrepresents the second largest party/coalition, and hence manufactured majorities likely would not be common, and plurality reversals an ever-present threat. I suspect (but won&#8217;t claim to prove) that such outcomes would be even more prevalent with M=2 STV or SNTV.</p>
<p>(I can&#8217;t tell how much of the Chilean pattern stems from malapportionment, but the patterns described, even if attenuated, would be inherent to the system even with fair apportionment.)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Alan</title>
		<link>http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=6502#comment-189652</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2013 18:04:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=6502#comment-189652</guid>
		<description>&#039;Binominal&#039;, combining a mix of Greek and Latin roots, would be macaronic, and therefore inherently evil. &#039;Duonominal&#039;, please.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;Binominal&#8217;, combining a mix of Greek and Latin roots, would be macaronic, and therefore inherently evil. &#8216;Duonominal&#8217;, please.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: MSS</title>
		<link>http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=6502#comment-189651</link>
		<dc:creator>MSS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2013 17:56:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=6502#comment-189651</guid>
		<description>&quot;Binominal&quot; would make more sense than &quot;binomial&quot;, for the reasons Chris notes ( generalization from uninominal). As for &quot;binomial&quot;, it is well established as an English word in both mathematics (as Alan alludes to) and biology, and I assume both fields got it straight from Latin rather than by way of Spanish.

Again, my point is that it is not specific enough. Either binomial or binominal makes (some) sense for describing the presence of two candidates of a given party/coalition or two legislators per district. But the essential feature of the Chilean system is as much the use of D&#039;Hondt as it is M=2.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Binominal&#8221; would make more sense than &#8220;binomial&#8221;, for the reasons Chris notes ( generalization from uninominal). As for &#8220;binomial&#8221;, it is well established as an English word in both mathematics (as Alan alludes to) and biology, and I assume both fields got it straight from Latin rather than by way of Spanish.</p>
<p>Again, my point is that it is not specific enough. Either binomial or binominal makes (some) sense for describing the presence of two candidates of a given party/coalition or two legislators per district. But the essential feature of the Chilean system is as much the use of D&#8217;Hondt as it is M=2.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=6502#comment-189638</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2013 08:12:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=6502#comment-189638</guid>
		<description>Probably not strong. It would take either a third party demanding its implementation without a referendum or simply being branded as 2-member proportional while hoping Pinocho doesn&#039;t get brought up.

Though mentioning General Pinochet could very well make the Thatcherites more likely to support such a plan; they are, after all, nearly identical economic systems as well as similarly bellicose and with very strong executives supported only by a minority of the population (The Baroness Thatcher never won more than 43.9% of the vote in an election).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Probably not strong. It would take either a third party demanding its implementation without a referendum or simply being branded as 2-member proportional while hoping Pinocho doesn&#8217;t get brought up.</p>
<p>Though mentioning General Pinochet could very well make the Thatcherites more likely to support such a plan; they are, after all, nearly identical economic systems as well as similarly bellicose and with very strong executives supported only by a minority of the population (The Baroness Thatcher never won more than 43.9% of the vote in an election).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Alan</title>
		<link>http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=6502#comment-189635</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2013 07:13:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=6502#comment-189635</guid>
		<description>It is not yet a constitutional convention, but the UK has a clear record of referendums on constitutional and electoral matters. This is a country that regarded the alternative vote as a radical, dangerous and fearsome innovation. 

What do you suppose the chances are of a referendum adopting an electoral system whose opponents can, without too much overstretch, describe as an invention of Augusto Pinochet?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is not yet a constitutional convention, but the UK has a clear record of referendums on constitutional and electoral matters. This is a country that regarded the alternative vote as a radical, dangerous and fearsome innovation. </p>
<p>What do you suppose the chances are of a referendum adopting an electoral system whose opponents can, without too much overstretch, describe as an invention of Augusto Pinochet?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Derek</title>
		<link>http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=6502#comment-189634</link>
		<dc:creator>Derek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2013 06:26:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=6502#comment-189634</guid>
		<description>I think the Brits, due to the fact that they like their small constituencies, would use multi-member districts between 2 and 4 seats each, using STV.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the Brits, due to the fact that they like their small constituencies, would use multi-member districts between 2 and 4 seats each, using STV.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=6502#comment-189629</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2013 01:32:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=6502#comment-189629</guid>
		<description>Though overall, if there are two remainder seats, the fairest way to distribute them may be to create two SMDs. That may favor the largest party, but at least it&#039;s competitive, whereas 2-seat STV makes it almost a given that the second party will be substantially overrepresented. 

If a polity is going to use the principle of two single-member seats for remainder seats, though, the lowest population density rule may not be wise, as it would tend to unfairly favor conservative parties.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Though overall, if there are two remainder seats, the fairest way to distribute them may be to create two SMDs. That may favor the largest party, but at least it&#8217;s competitive, whereas 2-seat STV makes it almost a given that the second party will be substantially overrepresented. </p>
<p>If a polity is going to use the principle of two single-member seats for remainder seats, though, the lowest population density rule may not be wise, as it would tend to unfairly favor conservative parties.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
