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	<title>Comments on: Toward the Italian general election of 2013</title>
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	<link>http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=6722</link>
	<description>The Weblog of Matthew S. Shugart</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 22 May 2013 17:59:35 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=6722#comment-190354</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2013 20:18:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=6722#comment-190354</guid>
		<description>It would appear to me that the plurality bonus is one of the Italian system&#039;s biggest flaws. While it at least works better than the Greek system in that it guarantees a majority (though it does not guarantee a majority in the Senate), it causes the formation of electoral alliances with no strong ties to one another.

If Berlusconi somehow wins, I would doubt very much that alliance lasts 4 years in power. There will be probably be conflicts with Lega Nord, but almost certainly there will be conflicts when Berlusconi decides he wants the actual premiership and not just a puppet who may or may not exhibit independence.

I would think a system which creates a smaller number of larger parties would be more stable-perhaps true MMP with a single ballot (list seats based on constituency votes), and forbidding pre election alliances to be formed (perhaps banning party mergers after electionsare called to strengthen this). I also think allowing the PM to call for a Senate-only election (for the unexpired term until the next general election) with restrictions (say, only if confidence is lost, and not within one year of the previous Senate election) would substantially help. If the PM lost the new Senate election, he could be required to resign.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would appear to me that the plurality bonus is one of the Italian system&#8217;s biggest flaws. While it at least works better than the Greek system in that it guarantees a majority (though it does not guarantee a majority in the Senate), it causes the formation of electoral alliances with no strong ties to one another.</p>
<p>If Berlusconi somehow wins, I would doubt very much that alliance lasts 4 years in power. There will be probably be conflicts with Lega Nord, but almost certainly there will be conflicts when Berlusconi decides he wants the actual premiership and not just a puppet who may or may not exhibit independence.</p>
<p>I would think a system which creates a smaller number of larger parties would be more stable-perhaps true MMP with a single ballot (list seats based on constituency votes), and forbidding pre election alliances to be formed (perhaps banning party mergers after electionsare called to strengthen this). I also think allowing the PM to call for a Senate-only election (for the unexpired term until the next general election) with restrictions (say, only if confidence is lost, and not within one year of the previous Senate election) would substantially help. If the PM lost the new Senate election, he could be required to resign.</p>
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		<title>By: MSS</title>
		<link>http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=6722#comment-190350</link>
		<dc:creator>MSS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2013 18:47:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=6722#comment-190350</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://chrishanretty.co.uk/blog/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Chris Hanretty&lt;/a&gt; has developed a forecast model of the Italian elections. See &lt;a href=&quot;http://themonkeycage.org/blog/2013/02/18/chris-hanretty-predicts-the-outcome-of-the-italian-elections/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Monkey Cage&lt;/a&gt; for some key summaries.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a target="_blank" href="http://chrishanretty.co.uk/blog/"  rel="nofollow">Chris Hanretty</a> has developed a forecast model of the Italian elections. See <a target="_blank" href="http://themonkeycage.org/blog/2013/02/18/chris-hanretty-predicts-the-outcome-of-the-italian-elections/"  rel="nofollow">The Monkey Cage</a> for some key summaries.</p>
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		<title>By: Gianluca</title>
		<link>http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=6722#comment-190224</link>
		<dc:creator>Gianluca</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Feb 2013 09:01:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=6722#comment-190224</guid>
		<description>Chris:

I agree with MSS that the scorporo did not “turn the system into MMM&quot;. However, the presence of decoy lists created not only problems of accountability and representativeness but it also generated institutional weakness. In the 2001-2006 legislature the parliament had 12 seats less than usual due to the &#039;scorporo&#039; misunderstanding and misinterpretation. In fact in those decoy lists the biggest parties (and in particular that related to Forza Italia) included a number of candidates shorter than the number of seats they won. So those seats had could not been assigned.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris:</p>
<p>I agree with MSS that the scorporo did not “turn the system into MMM&#8221;. However, the presence of decoy lists created not only problems of accountability and representativeness but it also generated institutional weakness. In the 2001-2006 legislature the parliament had 12 seats less than usual due to the &#8216;scorporo&#8217; misunderstanding and misinterpretation. In fact in those decoy lists the biggest parties (and in particular that related to Forza Italia) included a number of candidates shorter than the number of seats they won. So those seats had could not been assigned.</p>
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		<title>By: Gianluca</title>
		<link>http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=6722#comment-190223</link>
		<dc:creator>Gianluca</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Feb 2013 08:55:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=6722#comment-190223</guid>
		<description>Chris:

Yes, the introduction of the constructive vote of no confidence may support the government stability and contemporarily make more responsible the smaller parties. The problem of Italian party system is not the presence of an important number of (small) parties, but rather their &#039;relevance&#039; and &#039;blackmail&#039; power.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris:</p>
<p>Yes, the introduction of the constructive vote of no confidence may support the government stability and contemporarily make more responsible the smaller parties. The problem of Italian party system is not the presence of an important number of (small) parties, but rather their &#8216;relevance&#8217; and &#8216;blackmail&#8217; power.</p>
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		<title>By: Gianluca</title>
		<link>http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=6722#comment-190222</link>
		<dc:creator>Gianluca</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Feb 2013 08:52:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=6722#comment-190222</guid>
		<description>Suaprazzodi : 

I think that there is not a &#039;right&#039; electoral system in absolute terms. However, a system that would increase accountability and government stability is needed. Not only plurality could so. Vice versa, a PR system with small-medium districts it will both take in account the need of representativeness of socio-political cleavages still relevant in the country, and push toward a more stable party and government systems. 

PS: I do not think the main problem is the parliamentary size (lower house): Germany and France have similar number of deputies and a quite similar population too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Suaprazzodi : </p>
<p>I think that there is not a &#8216;right&#8217; electoral system in absolute terms. However, a system that would increase accountability and government stability is needed. Not only plurality could so. Vice versa, a PR system with small-medium districts it will both take in account the need of representativeness of socio-political cleavages still relevant in the country, and push toward a more stable party and government systems. </p>
<p>PS: I do not think the main problem is the parliamentary size (lower house): Germany and France have similar number of deputies and a quite similar population too.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=6722#comment-190215</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Feb 2013 05:54:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=6722#comment-190215</guid>
		<description>&quot;Interestingly, of the countries just named, Germany really is the least two-bloc. The FDP has at times governed with either of the two major parties, the major parties have governed together, and the Left is not part of either bloc.&quot;

Germany&#039;s politics could be said to be even less two-bloc than that, particularly at the state level. Red-red coalitions (SPD-Linke) have occurred.

After the Saarland election in 2009, the Greens held the balance of power between the CDU-FDP bloc and the Red-red bloc (the existence of this bloc as a potential government may have been helped by the fact that Oskar Lafontaine, a former SPD Minister-President and federal Chairman, was the leader of the Left). Contrary to what may have been expected, the Greens chose to support the CDU-FDP bloc, forming Germany&#039;s first &quot;Jamaica alliance&quot; (black-yellow-green), though from outside cabinet rather than in the government. It collapsed early, in 2012, but it was not because of the Greens defecting, but rather because of internal fighting within the FDP.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Interestingly, of the countries just named, Germany really is the least two-bloc. The FDP has at times governed with either of the two major parties, the major parties have governed together, and the Left is not part of either bloc.&#8221;</p>
<p>Germany&#8217;s politics could be said to be even less two-bloc than that, particularly at the state level. Red-red coalitions (SPD-Linke) have occurred.</p>
<p>After the Saarland election in 2009, the Greens held the balance of power between the CDU-FDP bloc and the Red-red bloc (the existence of this bloc as a potential government may have been helped by the fact that Oskar Lafontaine, a former SPD Minister-President and federal Chairman, was the leader of the Left). Contrary to what may have been expected, the Greens chose to support the CDU-FDP bloc, forming Germany&#8217;s first &#8220;Jamaica alliance&#8221; (black-yellow-green), though from outside cabinet rather than in the government. It collapsed early, in 2012, but it was not because of the Greens defecting, but rather because of internal fighting within the FDP.</p>
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		<title>By: MSS</title>
		<link>http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=6722#comment-190195</link>
		<dc:creator>MSS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Feb 2013 18:43:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=6722#comment-190195</guid>
		<description>Chris, the 2002 NZ election was called early. Normally, elections are in October or November. That one was in July. Maybe that&#039;s not especially early, though in the context of three-year maximum terms, even a few months is notable.

The earliness of the election was occasioned by policy disagreements with the outside supporter of the Labour-led minority government, the Greens. They had quite an uneasy partnership, and we could say that the party system at the time was short of being clearly two-bloc in nature. Labour called the election early because PM Helen Clark thought she might be able to win an outright majority. She did not, but was able to bring in a center-right support party, the United Future, and dispatch the Greens to the opposition. The UF is somewhat analogous to the German FDP in that it has supported governments led by either of the big parties, though it is a much less significant political force in its own right.

Also, I would not agree that no party in New Zealand under MMP has come close to a majority. National currently has 59 seats out of 121. In 2008 it had 58 out of 122.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris, the 2002 NZ election was called early. Normally, elections are in October or November. That one was in July. Maybe that&#8217;s not especially early, though in the context of three-year maximum terms, even a few months is notable.</p>
<p>The earliness of the election was occasioned by policy disagreements with the outside supporter of the Labour-led minority government, the Greens. They had quite an uneasy partnership, and we could say that the party system at the time was short of being clearly two-bloc in nature. Labour called the election early because PM Helen Clark thought she might be able to win an outright majority. She did not, but was able to bring in a center-right support party, the United Future, and dispatch the Greens to the opposition. The UF is somewhat analogous to the German FDP in that it has supported governments led by either of the big parties, though it is a much less significant political force in its own right.</p>
<p>Also, I would not agree that no party in New Zealand under MMP has come close to a majority. National currently has 59 seats out of 121. In 2008 it had 58 out of 122.</p>
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		<title>By: MSS</title>
		<link>http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=6722#comment-190194</link>
		<dc:creator>MSS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Feb 2013 18:35:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=6722#comment-190194</guid>
		<description>Mark, yes. It is one of the better established findings of political science that cabinet duration tends to be shorter the greater the fragmentation of the legislature.

Actually, Italy since the mid-90s, as well as Germany and New Zealand (even post-reform), all have essentially two-bloc systems. However, in Italy, those blocs mask a very fragmented party system in which the component parties of the blocs retain separate identity--and periodically demonstrate their independence.

Interestingly, of the countries just named, Germany really is the least two-bloc. The FDP has at times governed with either of the two major parties, the major parties have governed together, and the Left is not part of either bloc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark, yes. It is one of the better established findings of political science that cabinet duration tends to be shorter the greater the fragmentation of the legislature.</p>
<p>Actually, Italy since the mid-90s, as well as Germany and New Zealand (even post-reform), all have essentially two-bloc systems. However, in Italy, those blocs mask a very fragmented party system in which the component parties of the blocs retain separate identity&#8211;and periodically demonstrate their independence.</p>
<p>Interestingly, of the countries just named, Germany really is the least two-bloc. The FDP has at times governed with either of the two major parties, the major parties have governed together, and the Left is not part of either bloc.</p>
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		<title>By: MSS</title>
		<link>http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=6722#comment-190193</link>
		<dc:creator>MSS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Feb 2013 18:18:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=6722#comment-190193</guid>
		<description>The scorporo did not &quot;turn the system into MMM&quot;; it was designed as MMM, with only a partial compensation mechanism. This mechanism consisted of adjusting list votes based on nominal-tier performance prior to parallel allocation of list-tier seats. In the terminology of Shugart and Wattenberg, &quot;vote linkage&quot; rather than the &quot;seat linkage&quot; between tiers of MMP. &lt;a href=&quot;http://fruitsandvotes.com/?cat=86&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Hungary&lt;/a&gt;&#039;s partially compensatory, but &lt;a href=&quot;http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=705&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;fundamentally majoritarian&lt;/a&gt;, MMM is broadly similar.

It is true that parties could &quot;game&quot; the system by setting up decoy lists, but it is not the same as the practice in various elections in actual MMP jurisdictions (e.g. &lt;a href=&quot;http://fruitsandvotes.com/?cat=128&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Lesotho&lt;/a&gt;, 2007).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The scorporo did not &#8220;turn the system into MMM&#8221;; it was designed as MMM, with only a partial compensation mechanism. This mechanism consisted of adjusting list votes based on nominal-tier performance prior to parallel allocation of list-tier seats. In the terminology of Shugart and Wattenberg, &#8220;vote linkage&#8221; rather than the &#8220;seat linkage&#8221; between tiers of MMP. <a href="http://fruitsandvotes.com/?cat=86"  rel="nofollow">Hungary</a>&#8216;s partially compensatory, but <a href="http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=705"  rel="nofollow">fundamentally majoritarian</a>, MMM is broadly similar.</p>
<p>It is true that parties could &#8220;game&#8221; the system by setting up decoy lists, but it is not the same as the practice in various elections in actual MMP jurisdictions (e.g. <a href="http://fruitsandvotes.com/?cat=128"  rel="nofollow">Lesotho</a>, 2007).</p>
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		<title>By: Mark R</title>
		<link>http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=6722#comment-190169</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark R</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Feb 2013 11:31:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=6722#comment-190169</guid>
		<description>I think that at least part of the reason that both Germany and New Zealand have governments that are expected to last a full term is that they are both, from a certain point of view, a two-party system. By that I mean, that basically everyone knows that the governments will be lead by one of two parties CDU/CSU or the SDP in Germany, the Nationals or Labour in NZ. Small parties can and do become involved in government formation, but generally whichever party gets the most seats on election night is expected to form a government in short order. 

Alternatively, Italy just has unstable party politics. If it were up to me, I would make the Senate elected through single member districts but not have any say in government formation. Whoever can form a coalition in the chamber of deputies can lead the government for as long as that coalition is stable. The Senate would lose no other powers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that at least part of the reason that both Germany and New Zealand have governments that are expected to last a full term is that they are both, from a certain point of view, a two-party system. By that I mean, that basically everyone knows that the governments will be lead by one of two parties CDU/CSU or the SDP in Germany, the Nationals or Labour in NZ. Small parties can and do become involved in government formation, but generally whichever party gets the most seats on election night is expected to form a government in short order. </p>
<p>Alternatively, Italy just has unstable party politics. If it were up to me, I would make the Senate elected through single member districts but not have any say in government formation. Whoever can form a coalition in the chamber of deputies can lead the government for as long as that coalition is stable. The Senate would lose no other powers.</p>
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