I never imagined there would be a discussion at F&V about this topic, but it is Fruits and Votes, and we are in the midst of Pesach, so why not?
In an earlier planting I asked about the historical accuracy of apples in charoset, a key part of the Passover seder, given that apples are a fruit neither indigenous to the Middle East nor ripe in the springtime. Vasi provided a link about the possible origin of the custom in some interesting experiences the Israelites may have had in apple orchards in the Nile region.
The possibility that apples might have been in that part of the world at that time in history did not seem right. However, it could be so. On the apple and its ancient cultivation beyond its probable origins well to the north of the Biblical lands, see the history at Vegparadise:
Some historians report the apple’s origins were rooted in Southwestern Asia, just south of the Caucasus Mountains between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea. Others note that apple seeds found in Anatolia were carbon dated 6500 BCE. Archeologists even found a fossilized imprint of an apple seed from the Neolithic period in England.
And so maybe apples really are traditional to the Exodus experience after all, as the link Vasi provide above suggests. Vegparadise again:
In the 13th century BCE, Ramses II ordered cultivated varieties of apples planted in the Nile delta.
I would not have expected apples to have been grown in that region, given the climate. This offers more evidence that apples–even old varieties–do not have a significant chilling requirement! (The Nile delta would not get much winter chill, and while the climate certainly has shifted and the region was not always desert, it was also not temperate, but rather probably tropical around Ramses time. By the time of the Exodus, it had probably largely completed its transformation to desert.)
Even if apples were known to the ancient Egyptians and Israelites, there is still no way there would have been fresh apples to eat at the original Passover, assuming the first one really took place in springtime.
This discussion inevitably leads to the question of what Eve’s fruit of temptation might have been. I would guess pomegranate. The Vegparadise page agrees, but also suggests maybe quince. Quince seems unlikely, given its non-Middle East origins, but if apples could grow in the Nile delta, quince certainly could grow in the Tigirs delta, as they have quite low chilling requirements. However, quince are almost certainly also from much farther to the north, so presumably human traders would have been required to bring quince into the region. That somehow does not quite fit with the whole Genesis/Adam & Eve story, does it?
My old rebbe held that the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge was the etrog. I have no recollection of the reasoning behind this conclusion. I just remember thinking that the snake must have been extremely convincing, if he could get Eve to bite into something that tastes like a lemon!
As always, Wikipedia has some interesting thoughts. The idea that the fruit was the grape, and that Eve actually drank wine, is particularly satisfying at first glance.
Seed planted by Vasi — 16 April 2006 @ 14:53
The etrog citron, indeed, would not be a very tasty thing. It has a special place in Judaism (at Sukkot), and whether or not it was the fruit of temptation, I wonder how it arrived in the Middle East in Biblical times, as all citrus originally comes from south and southeast Asia.
If the etrog fruit can be sold for $10-50 a pound, why am I not yet growing it myself?
Grapes? Interesting possibility, but then, of course, it should be the Vine of Knoweldge!
Seed planted by F&V Head Orchardist — 16 April 2006 @ 15:34
Does anyone have any insight into the Biblical agricultural laws, especially those related to fruit trees? Leviticus 19:23-24 states “When you come into the land, and have planted all kinds of trees for food, then you shall count their fruit as uncircumcised. Three years it shall be as uncircumcised to you. It shall not be eaten. But in the fourth year all its fruit shall be holy, a praise to the LORD.” This is probably founded in the idea that a tree needs to spend its early life growing rather than producing.
Seed planted by Doug Young — 17 April 2006 @ 08:17
Interesting; yes, fruit trees should be allowed to grow and not produce much in their early years. In fact, it is wise to remove all the fruit that a very young tree does produce, or else it can be stunted by putting its energy into producing fruit rather than foliar growth needed to nourish its root system (and the fruit).
I have to admit, however, that I am very bad at following this practice! Besides, I want my trees to stay small, so early production is not such a bad thing for the grower who wants limited quantities of many varieties.
But a couple of times I have had trees wind up overly stunted as a possible result of early over-production. I even had a Royal apricot fruit itself to death some years back! Little tree set really heavily and then began an immediate decline.
Seed planted by F&V Head Orchardist — 17 April 2006 @ 08:59
It would seem to me that if that if the idea was to not allow plants to produce much in their early years, it would make more sense to say that the flowers should be thinned, not that the fruit should not be eaten, which is a little beside the point. If all you did was ignore them for three years, they’d actually produce a lot harder, and by the time the fourth year rolled around you’d risk already being trapped in an alternate bearing kind of situation.
That said, I suspect that in most early horticulture, where a large proportion of orchards were seed propagated, this wasn’t as much of an issue, since seed propagated plants, by undergoing juvenility, tend to concentrate on vegetative growth in the early years, without as much assistance.
As to apples in the Nile delta…if I had to guess, I’d say maybe Malus sylvestris? I don’t think it’s native, but it would be available with a short hop across from the Greek Isles, and we know there was trade between there and Egypt. There’s also evidence of Malus sylvestris in the contents of an ancient Babylonian pharmacy, suggesting it was probably around in the Middle East even before the Hebrew’s time in Egypt.
Seed planted by Evil Fruit Lord — 06 May 2006 @ 14:49
On the topic of chilling requirement, I no sooner hit “Plant seed” than I looked and found an article in the new copy of NAFEX’s Pomona which mentions a fellow growing high-chill apples successfully under relatively low chill conditions in California, apparently without doing anything special.
There are ways around chilling requirement in some species…I know with blackberries it can be done by repeatedly removing leaves from the canes. It’s possible to convince a plant to shut down for reasons other than cold, and simulate the chilling.
I sort of wonder if some kind of controlled (or lucky) drought stress could accomplish this. Maybe associated with the seasonal Nile flooding? Just thoughts.
Seed planted by Evil Fruit Lord — 06 May 2006 @ 14:59
True enough, if Leviticus 19:23-24 referred to idea that a tree needs to spend its early life growing rather than producing, it would be beside the point. The commandment is not to prevent the tree from fruiting, but to avoid eating the fruit till the fourth year. I wonder why.
Whatever the case may be, I do like this part:
I just don’t like the part about “forbidden” that follows.
Seed planted by F&V Head Orchardist — 09 May 2006 @ 09:06
I know some growers in southern California claim that apples (or many of them) may have no chilling requirement. They may be on to something, as I am growing several varieties listed in catalogs as having chilling requirements of 800 or more. On the other hand, some of them do not grow well, have late and staggered blooms, and are shy bearers–all signs of insufficient chill. They will give some fruit, however, unlike high-chill stone fruits.
Malus sylvestris. Crab apple. That possibility had not occurred to me!
On the theme of other inducements to bloom besides chill, we see a lot of off-cycle blooms here, especially on apples. Occasionally, these even result in off-cycle fruit, though not usually of good quality. The Prunus dasycarpa ‘Mesch Mesch Amrah’ and other stone fruits often open a few flower buds in the fall shortly after defoliating in the fall (as depicted here last fall), but no fruit.
It is often recommended around these parts to withhold water or strip leaves in late summer to induce dormancy in plants that might otherwise not go into full dormancy in our mild winters. I have sometimes done this with apples. Even the lower-chill ones (like ‘Anna’) need their dormancy, and sometimes are virtually evergreen and bearing fruit nearly year round!
Seed planted by F&V Head Orchardist — 09 May 2006 @ 09:11
No need to answer these questions they are just rehtoric.
There were two trees in the garden.
The Tree of Life & The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Isn’t it interesting that the Tree of life is always referred to as a living walking man namely Jesus Christ. Or Symbolic of Jesus Christ.
Is the same symbolic language used for the other tree?
Also I found interesting:
After “the fall” what did God say to the serpent about Eve “And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed;” Why?
Seed planted by Correy — 26 May 2006 @ 04:51